I have been thinking about another issue which I think is crucially important to the success of the game and that is combat.

Based on the discussions so far, blatant piracy in most of the regions will not be common.  The problem is combat is easily detectable in space and an aggressor easily traced, making hit and hide tactics unrealisitc. So far we have agreed that the asteroid belt will be the main region for pirate havens, due to the vast distance from authorities in the densly populated inner system as well as the vast number of asteroids to choose from in which to start a base and the distances between them.

So if the asteroid belt is the only region where pirates are prominent, then the question must be asked, how can the combat oriented player get their "fix" in other regions??  Surely the Belt shouldn't be the only region where your can brush off your combat skills and shoot things?  If it is then there is the risk that the game will fail to capture a large portion of the market!

So the question is how can allowances for more combat be delievered in the game?

One option I can think of is military missions, perhaps the player is a mercenary for hire.. the player would see pleanty of action here, but it would probably be a larger battle field scenario than a one on one skirmish..this is not what I had in mind in the game.

Another option (borrowed from THS) is the ocassional robot piloted drone left over from some major war which is programmed to attack ships not broadcasting a certain code to mark them as friendly.

And what about wars in the early timeline anyway? I haven't seen any in the timeline, but why not if done in a believable fashion?

Another option might be for some dangerous regions within the HUBs.  Perhaps there are regular skirmishes in particular areas in the region, so many that authorities are too stretched to intervene on a regular basis.  Perhaps the authorities don't have the firepower and are not a serious threat?  This is not likely on Earth as it is highly established, I am thinking  L5, Mars, Belt (as already suggested) and possibly Lunar.  If skirmishes take place in populated areas, then hit and run tactics may be more plausisble.  The agressor can simply dock into a nearby station to avoid detection.  With 100 objects to dock with, detection may not be so easy.

Anyway these are just some ideas, I will be thinking of this issues some more, but I think it is important that we find a solution as if we only alow for limited combat in limited areas, then we risk cutting out a major section of the gaming audience.

Also further out too, although the outer solar system isnt as developed, by the same token there is more scope for banditry, and hence (as in THS) even non-military ships plying the more isolated regions may have some defensive weaponry (a single laser turret, coilgun, or some such)

So maybe we should add some additional HUBs

• Jovian System (although each Gallean Moon would also be a sort of separate sub-hub?)
  
• Sun-Jupiter LaGrange Points (some asteroids, so some resources there)
  
• Saturn (again, a mini solar system in its own right - Rings, Tiotan, smaller moons)
  
• Uranus
  
• Neptune
  
• Pluto
  
• Kupeir Bodies
  
• Oort Cloud

The further out, the less there is (as in THS), however the outer system should be a lot more developed in OA 300 AT than it is in THS

So if the asteroid belt is the only region where pirates are prominent, then the question must be asked, how can the combat oriented player get their "fix" in other regions??  Surely the Belt shouldn't be the only region where your can brush off your combat skills and shoot things?  If it is then there is the risk that the game will fail to capture a large portion of the market!
Quoted from Damo, posted Today at 1:03am at here.

Damon i agree this game will be a flop unless we have an extensive combat element to it

This certainly is one good reason to include those extra HUBS out past the Belt.  (I know it makes the game more complicated, but it also makes it more interesting)

Of course, it would take months or years to get out there, the situation might change in the meantime, you might arrive there and find out there is no longer any need for combat etc etc.  This is also part of the RPG aspect.  But there obviously also should be lots of opportunities where the player can engage himself in combat, advertise as a hired gun, etc

Yes, lots of options

Here's a sort of incomplete classification - from best to worst (in terms of game fun)

• Combat with own ship (best option for game) - Merc, Bounty Hunter, Pirate, Freedom Fighter, Trader in lawless region
  
• Combat with spaceship they give you - maybe military, spaceguard, police, special ops, corporate in-house weapons, etc (part of bigger institution (means you need to spend years training and working there)

Yes, we need a couple of wars for the early interplanetary period.

That would let us introduce left-over AKVs, which the player could then try to take out (there would be a bounty on each one confirmed destroyed, for the less sentient, purely automatic non-self-repairing AKVs it would be small, but for the smarter, turingrade ones it would be a lot higher.  Some would be quasi-neumann self-repairing; some may have bene reprogrammed by "terroristst"/"idealists"  to remove their restraints (taboo on attacking unarmed vessel etc) or give them complete autonomy.  These AKVs might still be found in the Belt or beyond, I think it would be rare for them to be in the Lagrange points, unless the war ended very recently, as the ones in CisLunar space would be easily detected (apart from a couple hiding in the junkyards) and destroyed.

Actually, we need a different term to AKV, we dont want it to be too derivative of THS!
ARWS - Autonomous Robot Weapon Systems?
Maybe this should be raised on the list...

ARWS will be classified according to several factors - size, weapons-type, weapons delivery, sentience level, self-reparing/self-replicating ability, etc
some guidelines (maybe this hsould be a separate entry...?)

On Moon and Mars, away from the main population centers, sure, there may be militia, terrorist organisations, self-styled rebels etc.  In the Lagrange junk jungles there might be some strange characters hanging out.  In the urban decay populated environments it will be more the gang warfare type thing

Again, I suggest if we want to have this sort of thing with ships (and we should) we have to extend the HUBs out to beyond the Belt

Damon I completely agree.  Yes, we should make combat central to a lot of the game. 

So let's look over a few options again - for combat in which player has own ship, as these can be made the basis for game missions (note minimum requirements are only tentatively suggested here, and will vary according to mission)

ARWS hunter
minimum requirement: good ship, a lot of ship weapons, good ship sensors, no other crew, no personal weapons, instincts/cunning, good reflexes.  Pay is good. Legal

Pirate
minimum requirement: average ship, a lot of ship weapons, crew, a lot of personal weapons, instincts/cunning.  Pay is poor to average, or good if mission more dangerous. Illegal

Merc/Hired Gun (ship and surface)
minimum requirement: average ship, a lot of ship weapons, crew, a lot of personal weapons, instincts/cunning, good reflexes.  Pay is poor to average, or good if mission more dangerous. Legal or quasi-legal

Merc/Hired Gun (ship for hire only)
minimum requirement: average ship, a lot of ship weapons, no other crew, no personal weapons, instincts/cunning, good reflexes.  Pay is poor to average, or good if mission more dangerous. Legal or quasi-legal

Bounty Hunter
minimum requirement: basic ship, some ship weapons, no other crew, some personal weapons, instincts/cunning, good reflexes.  Pay is poor to good (but well payed missions may be much more dangerous). Legal or quasi-legal

Trader in lawless region
minimum requirement: basic ship, few ship weapons, no other crew, no personal weapons, average reflexes.  Pay is poor to average.  Legal

Trader in well-patrolled region
minimum requirement: basic ship, no ship weapons, no other crew, no personal weapons, average reflexes.  Pay is poor to average.  Legal

Yes I definitely want to include these areas in the later games, but in this era it is unattractive as:
- there is little business for the trader, in these regions.. settlement populations will be quite low and thus the greater time and distances traveled are less justified.  The only profit related reason I can think of for venturing into the outter system is to trade He₃ to the inner system

- As you have pointed out, the great gas giants are huge complex systems in themselves! We could probably base an entire game around any one of them. As you have pointed out their moons are HUBs in themselves (although not as developed as in CisLunar)

We could have these regions I suppose, but they will need to be simplified one or two base systems in the first title.

Also trading in these regions will be vastly different than trading in heavily populated CisLunar! 

Travel time and cost will be high, as well as the risk!  The question has to be asked, why would the small time trader do it?

Yes, but still small populations I imagine, in THS a lot of outter system locations are mainly for scientific interest.  I see Steve's 900at scenario as being more suited to the outter system.

I agree that it makes it more interesting.

If we do include the outter system we will have to accept that the colonies will be much more simplified and we need to give the player a reason for going out there! perhaps the plot takes them out there?

Well I figured most combat would be spur-of-the-moment.. you are trading goods and get attacked en-route.  Sure you could go out pirate hunting or take combat missions too.  I can't imagine you would spend months or years of travel for a fight!

The trouble with this option is again it's too much work initially! A space engine will be hard enough let alone a FPS one!  I think we should leave the FPS element out of it for now.

In that case, why not set the game in the time of the war?  This provides a few neat options such as missions to supply forces, actual combat for a particular force, also pirate attacks may be more predominant (in the inner system as defences are stretched!) as will attacks from forces as you attempt to ferry goods past enemy lines!
I imagine war is a big opportunity for the astute trader to profit hansomly!

Yes if we go with a non-war scenario these drones (let's call them drones for now, rather than AKV's) would provide combat opportunities.  I imagine they would be prominant in some regions of some HUBs, but fairly scarce in the populated regions of Terra, Luna and L4.  Vessels in L5 will be more open to drone attacks as I intend it to be a less developed and more open region, with a loose (possibly corrupt) government.  Not sure about Mars, drones would be quite easy to intercept in orbit I imagine, but they first have to be identified (which would not be easy until they attack I presume?) and also Mars's population is much lower than the Terra and Lunar regions (I assume the population of Lunar is higher than Mars at this point?)

If we decide to have a junk jungle at a Lagrange point, say L5 as I am suggesting, then ships can cut power and pretend to be space junk, there might even be a pirate base (or many) in the junk.  Pirates would learn the behaviour of the authorities and would know the best time to attack you.  Hell they might even have bribed a few officials along the way to turn a blind eye in certain regions! So the junk jungle might have pirate activity.

Another option for the pirate is to engage in an interplanetary "jump" if things get too hot.  The authorities could always give chase, but might not as it would be time and fuel costly to pursue.

The fleeing pirate could make for the belt.

  Of course they may be intercepted at end of their trip, but may have some other way to avoid detection.  Perhaps nanoassemblers could produce an object resembling a ship which could be launched as a decoy to confused the pursuers?  Perhaps they could hide behind a solar flare?  It would be interesting to think of some techniques that pirates may use in 300at, I'm sure they would have them!

The other option I have mentioned is the war time scenario in which defences are already stretched and might be so focused on military threats so as not to bother (or unable to do much about) too much about minor skirmishes with pirates.

Also as we are in the early interplanetary era, the region may be less ordered, in some places there may be so many small skirmishes that the authorities simply don't have the resources to handly every attack!  This may also be aided by the vast distances in space! In this situation piracy may be fairly common and the authorities would offer incentives for "commoners" to eradicate the problem by offering bounties for the destruction of pirates.

Yes all these options can be roles for the player in the game with some overlap between many of them, (except for the FPS aspect which I don't want to consider at this stage)

Actually, frontiers have always been the places of outlaws and those who get upto shifty business

Some suggestions (even for this time frame)

• illegal and semi-legal drugs
  
• untested / black market biomods
  
• bionano (incl. bionano weapons)
  
• unusual cults and social experiments
  
• fugitives
  

300 AT represents a time when the frontier is fukll of adventure, opportunity, and danger.  Sure, most people out tehre would be law-abiding, whetehr working for corporations, govts, or as scientists and researchers.  But teher would also be factions and dodgy business on the side.  Also the Jovian colonies would be reasonably established, although not like the two+ centuries old colonies of Moon, Mars, CisLunar, Belt, and other HUBs

In the later timeline, these move out to the Oort Cloud, and beyond

Yes, this is the main problem, the added complexity

Contraband that could make a small trader rich overnight - plenty willing to take the risk (looka t drug smugglers etc today)

I agree that it makes it more interesting. 
Quoted from Damo, posted 4 December 2003 at 1:14am

And we have to maximise that.  Even this first game has to be as intersting as we can make it

Well maybe they might only go to one place to do a deal re smuggling etc

Maybe you are hired to protect a colony or mining base in the Belt from raiders.  That might involve months of waiting where nothing happens, and maybe you might have to go on long patrols to go looking for 'em

I was thinking of just deciding battle RPG-wise.  If you have more mods, wired reflexes, a companion bot etc and are on familar ground you would do better than if you didnt,  So there would be a whole list of factors that would determine the outcome

I agree it shouldn't be a Halo type FPS, I find those sort of games boring myself, though I acknowledge they are very popular.  Later if Siderial Games becomes big this sort of thing can be incorporated i'm sure, as one aspect of the game, but now yeah, I would suggest combat be determined RPG-wise

In that case, why not set the game in the time of the war?  This provides a few neat options such as missions to supply forces, actual combat for a particular force, also pirate attacks may be more predominant (in the inner system as defences are stretched!) as will attacks from forces as you attempt to ferry goods past enemy lines!
I imagine war is a big opportunity for the astute trader to profit hansomly!
Quoted from Damo, posted 4 December 2003 at 1:14am at here.

True.  But this would have to discussed on the main list as well.  And we cant have a wayr without raesons.  So would first have to look at background, polities, etc etc.  Requires a lot of Worldbuilding

Yes, brining officials sounds like a good idea.  But the authorities would also move in to clear them out if they became too much of a nuisance.  Also there is always the danger (to the pirate) of corrupt officials wanting more and more money, or being replaced by honest officials

Of course they could just be scum types, less pirates and more along the line of local thugs who have some jerryrigged ships, they avoid the authorities and will only attack soft targets

Or the authorities could take them out with a particle canon (if close enough) or a missile or coil gun!  Actually if you ahve to run you are in trouble.

Assuming they have a few days or weeks head start they would be ok.  Perhaps one story option could be as a pirate who has to stay one step ahead of authorities.  The more raids he successfully undertakes, the bigger the price on his head  (this would be a good reason to hide out in the outer solar sstem, maybe get some extensive cosmetic surgery or bodymods to change his appearance, etc)

Camoflague as space junk which I think you mentioned would be the best and easiest.

Or camoflague their pirate ship as a legal vessel.

Decoys wouldnt help much unless thy ahd an identical thermal signature, rocket engines etc

But this would make it less a trader sim and more an all-out military one

Actually, frontiers have always been the places of outlaws and those who get upto shifty business

Some suggestions (even for this time frame)

• illegal and semi-legal drugs
  
• untested / black market biomods
  
• bionano (incl. bionano weapons)
  
• unusual cults and social experiments
  
• fugitives
  

300 AT represents a time when the frontier is fukll of adventure, opportunity, and danger.  Sure, most people out tehre would be law-abiding, whetehr working for corporations, govts, or as scientists and researchers.  But teher would also be factions and dodgy business on the side.  Also the Jovian colonies would be reasonably established, although not like the two+ centuries old colonies of Moon, Mars, CisLunar, Belt, and other HUBs

In the later timeline, these move out to the Oort Cloud, and beyond

Yes, this is the main problem, the added complexity

Contraband that could make a small trader rich overnight - plenty willing to take the risk (looka t drug smugglers etc today)

I agree that it makes it more interesting. 
Quoted from Damo, posted 4 December 2003 at 1:14am

And we have to maximise that.  Even this first game has to be as intersting as we can make it

Well maybe they might only go to one place to do a deal re smuggling etc

Maybe you are hired to protect a colony or mining base in the Belt from raiders.  That might involve months of waiting where nothing happens, and maybe you might have to go on long patrols to go looking for 'em

I was thinking of just deciding battle RPG-wise.  If you have more mods, wired reflexes, a companion bot etc and are on familar ground you would do better than if you didnt,  So there would be a whole list of factors that would determine the outcome

I agree it shouldn't be a Halo type FPS, I find those sort of games boring myself, though I acknowledge they are very popular.  Later if Siderial Games becomes big this sort of thing can be incorporated i'm sure, as one aspect of the game, but now yeah, I would suggest combat be determined RPG-wise

In that case, why not set the game in the time of the war?  This provides a few neat options such as missions to supply forces, actual combat for a particular force, also pirate attacks may be more predominant (in the inner system as defences are stretched!) as will attacks from forces as you attempt to ferry goods past enemy lines!
I imagine war is a big opportunity for the astute trader to profit hansomly!
Quoted from Damo, posted 4 December 2003 at 1:14am at here.

True.  But this would have to discussed on the main list as well.  And we cant have a wayr without raesons.  So would first have to look at background, polities, etc etc.  Requires a lot of Worldbuilding

Yes, brining officials sounds like a good idea.  But the authorities would also move in to clear them out if they became too much of a nuisance.  Also there is always the danger (to the pirate) of corrupt officials wanting more and more money, or being replaced by honest officials

Of course they could just be scum types, less pirates and more along the line of local thugs who have some jerryrigged ships, they avoid the authorities and will only attack soft targets

Or the authorities could take them out with a particle canon (if close enough) or a missile or coil gun!  Actually if you ahve to run you are in trouble.

Assuming they have a few days or weeks head start they would be ok.  Perhaps one story option could be as a pirate who has to stay one step ahead of authorities.  The more raids he successfully undertakes, the bigger the price on his head  (this would be a good reason to hide out in the outer solar sstem, maybe get some extensive cosmetic surgery or bodymods to change his appearance, etc)

Camoflague as space junk which I think you mentioned would be the best and easiest.

Or camoflague their pirate ship as a legal vessel.

Decoys wouldnt help much unless thy ahd an identical thermal signature, rocket engines etc

But this would make it less a trader sim and more an all-out military one

Actually, frontiers have always been the places of outlaws and those who get upto shifty business

Some suggestions (even for this time frame)

• illegal and semi-legal drugs
  
• untested / black market biomods
  
• bionano (incl. bionano weapons)
  
• unusual cults and social experiments
  
• fugitives
  

300 AT represents a time when the frontier is fukll of adventure, opportunity, and danger.  Sure, most people out tehre would be law-abiding, whetehr working for corporations, govts, or as scientists and researchers.  But teher would also be factions and dodgy business on the side.  Also the Jovian colonies would be reasonably established, although not like the two+ centuries old colonies of Moon, Mars, CisLunar, Belt, and other HUBs

In the later timeline, these move out to the Oort Cloud, and beyond

Yes, this is the main problem, the added complexity

Contraband that could make a small trader rich overnight - plenty willing to take the risk (looka t drug smugglers etc today)

I agree that it makes it more interesting. 
Quoted from Damo, posted 4 December 2003 at 1:14am

And we have to maximise that.  Even this first game has to be as intersting as we can make it

Well maybe they might only go to one place to do a deal re smuggling etc

Maybe you are hired to protect a colony or mining base in the Belt from raiders.  That might involve months of waiting where nothing happens, and maybe you might have to go on long patrols to go looking for 'em

I was thinking of just deciding battle RPG-wise.  If you have more mods, wired reflexes, a companion bot etc and are on familar ground you would do better than if you didnt,  So there would be a whole list of factors that would determine the outcome

I agree it shouldn't be a Halo type FPS, I find those sort of games boring myself, though I acknowledge they are very popular.  Later if Siderial Games becomes big this sort of thing can be incorporated i'm sure, as one aspect of the game, but now yeah, I would suggest combat be determined RPG-wise

In that case, why not set the game in the time of the war?  This provides a few neat options such as missions to supply forces, actual combat for a particular force, also pirate attacks may be more predominant (in the inner system as defences are stretched!) as will attacks from forces as you attempt to ferry goods past enemy lines!
I imagine war is a big opportunity for the astute trader to profit hansomly!
Quoted from Damo, posted 4 December 2003 at 1:14am at here.

True.  But this would have to discussed on the main list as well.  And we cant have a wayr without raesons.  So would first have to look at background, polities, etc etc.  Requires a lot of Worldbuilding

Yes, brining officials sounds like a good idea.  But the authorities would also move in to clear them out if they became too much of a nuisance.  Also there is always the danger (to the pirate) of corrupt officials wanting more and more money, or being replaced by honest officials

Of course they could just be scum types, less pirates and more along the line of local thugs who have some jerryrigged ships, they avoid the authorities and will only attack soft targets

Or the authorities could take them out with a particle canon (if close enough) or a missile or coil gun!  Actually if you ahve to run you are in trouble.

Assuming they have a few days or weeks head start they would be ok.  Perhaps one story option could be as a pirate who has to stay one step ahead of authorities.  The more raids he successfully undertakes, the bigger the price on his head  (this would be a good reason to hide out in the outer solar sstem, maybe get some extensive cosmetic surgery or bodymods to change his appearance, etc)

Camoflague as space junk which I think you mentioned would be the best and easiest.

Or camoflague their pirate ship as a legal vessel.

Decoys wouldnt help much unless thy ahd an identical thermal signature, rocket engines etc

But this would make it less a trader sim and more an all-out military one

Ok, well let's consider the option of the outer system in the first game.
If we do decide to go down this path then I suggest (and feel free to offer an alternative suggestion) a few small isolated outposts rather than a complex system like one of the HUBs will be like.

This is consistent with the era, I'm figuring less than 1% of the solar system population (excluding Earth) will be in CisLunar at this time (correct me if I'm wrong)  In reality the outter system will be more HUB-like in many regions than the ones we have mentioned, but to keep the game simple I think we should ignore that for now and only have a few bases that can be visited.

Like I said before I think if we do have the outter system we should keep it fairly simple.

I think the inner system HUBs, Earth, Lunar, L4, L5 and Mars should hold rich and complex societies as we have planned them to be, the belt a scattering of locations and maybe only a few locations at Jupiter and Saturn.. we might not even include anything at all past Saturn.

I will summarise in percentage terms the populations of the various regions:

Yeah sure I agree, but we also want to finish it in reasonable time which will mean setting achieveable goals.. a finished product, no matter how simplified is far more use than a great idea which never makes it out the door!

I'm not sure one guy alone would be hired to protect against a potential fleet of pirate raders...

Sorry, so a RPG engine rather than a FPS engine, this is still is a decent amount of work (although not as much and much simpler than a FPS admittedly). I think the sim element of the game should be top priority, perhaps with a limited RPG element at this stage. My feeling is hand to hand combat might be one feature too much at this stage.  Instead perhaps space combat can be handled in a RPG fashion?

Well RPG combat on a station would be a cool enhancement that can be added on later also, perhaps one for the second title?  But we can discuss this further at a later stage.

Yes true, it would be a fair amount of worldbuildng, but is one option to consider.. I think a war is a reasonable enough thing to include in the early timeline, even if it doesn't coincide with the game.

Yes I imagine most attacks will be on soft targets.  Pirates will lurk in favourable locations and attack when an opportunity arises.  Some hot-headed ambitious types will get inpatient and may try and bight off more than they can chew, but will be quickly cut down by the authorities or their better equipped prey.

We could occasionally show battles in the background.

I assume there would be evasive manouvers a fleeing pirate could pull off, which may counter these.  If the pirate can gain the element of surprise (perhaps by firing a few snap shots) they may be able to apply high thrust burners which could put some quick distance between them and their pursuers, I believe this may be enough to gain a few hours/days or weeks if not prevent a close combat encounter indefinitely!

The authorities simply may not bother giving chase, choosing to conserve fuel, or their vehicles may be better suited to short range pursuits.

If this is the case they may try and take their target out with one of the methods you mention.  If a missile, the pirate may counter it with an ECM system, or may be able to dodge it.  If a particle canon, or coil gun the pirate could jink with side thrusters making them an unpredictable target (they could probably only do this for a limited time).  Sure the pirate's chance of survival may be limited when they're forced to run, but I'm sure they might have a few tricks up their sleeve for such an occasion.

Yes, but at some stage they will cut thrusters in which case there may be a minimal thermal signature anyway. 

Not necessarily.. the player could still be primarily orientated towards trading goods with the war in the background and the war would probably only be in one or two regions.

This is consistent with the era, I'm figuring less than 1% of the solar system population (excluding Earth) will be in CisLunar at this time (correct me if I'm wrong)  In reality the outter system will be more HUB-like in many regions than the ones we have mentioned, but to keep the game simple I think we should ignore that for now and only have a few bases that can be visited.
Quoted from Damo, posted 8 December 2003 at 3:28pm

I think there would be quite a few on Mars.  Mars really will be the "new frontier" - land of hopes and dreams (like the American West during the 19th century)

so essentially the main population centers are
o Earth
o Earth Orbitals HEO/Geostationary (or whatever)
o Cislunar L4
o Cislunar L5
o Luna
o Luna Orbitals HEO/Geostationary (or whatever)
o Mars
o Mars Orbitals HEO/Geostationary (or whatever)

I'm wondering whether i shouldnt revise the timeline a bit and we can set the sim in 250 AT - or just 2200 c.e. rather than 300 AT

hmm, looks good to me, except i expect L4 and L5 to have more similar populations

I agree.  Yep, keep it simple.  Though we have to ensure it is addictive too!

I meant the odd solitary pirate, essentially the Belt version of the Imndonesian/Malaysian pirates, a bunch of guys with machettes (and maybe one or two guns between them) in a fishing boat with a good outboard moto

The MR (Manifold Runner) version would be a "bumblebee" class ship with a single and rather inefficient/inaccurate coil gun (probably something home-made and just as likely to blow up in their faces) or converted industrial/mining laser, and grapples and a hatch for boarding

I definitely see piracy in thi ssetting as a very "low tech" and "amateurish" approach, it will be nothing like the soft sci fi fantasy of the space pirates in their sleek well-armed ship, a jolly roger painted on the side

hmm - i was thinking something like -
For Melee:
o you have wired reflexes - add one point advantage,
o you have a cyborg arm - add one point,
o you have bioborg muscle grafts - add two points
o you are good at martial arts - add two points

something like that.  Minimally basic.  Of course, if even this is a lot of work, ok, we can leave it out; i agree with you that it is best to keep this first game simple and get it out sooner.

Of course, if even this is a lot of work, ok, we can leave it out; i agree with you that it is best to keep this first game simple and get it out sooner.

Well RPG combat on a station would be a cool enhancement that can be added on later also, perhaps one for the second title?  But we can discuss this further at a later stage.
Quoted from Damo, posted 8 December 2003 at 3:28pm at here.

ok, that sounds good

I've raised this on the main list, so we should get some decent feedback

We could occasionally show battles in the background.
Quoted from Damo, posted 8 December 2003 at 3:28pm at here.

Maybe on news reports (with image of two ships fighting)

I assume there would be evasive manouvers a fleeing pirate could pull off, which may counter these.  If the pirate can gain the element of surprise (perhaps by firing a few snap shots) they may be able to apply high thrust burners which could put some quick distance between them and their pursuers, I believe this may be enough to gain a few hours/days or weeks if not prevent a close combat encounter indefinitely!
Quoted from Damo, posted 8 December 2003

The authorities simply may not bother giving chase, choosing to conserve fuel, or their vehicles may be better suited to short range pursuits.
Quoted from Damo, posted 8 December 2003 at 3:28pm

Very unlikely.  Why?  Because the authorities (the cops or space guard) love to give chases.  It's what they live for!  (ever see those "greatest police chases shows?  )  And unlikely they would have inferior (short range, whatever) ships - would be the opposite - the pirates would have inferior ships

Yes, but at some stage they will cut thrusters in which case there may be a minimal thermal signature anyway. 
Quoted from Damo, posted 8 December 2003 at 3:28pm

But the reactor will still be hot, the engines will be hot, they will be radiating heat for a while

Not necessarily.. the player could still be primarily orientated towards trading goods with the war in the background and the war would probably only be in one or two regions.
Quoted from Damo, posted 8 December 2003 at 3:28pm

I disagree here for this reason: if you say "There is a war blah de blah" then players will expect to be able to fly military ships in that war (like all the soft sci fi space sims).  They wont want to much around as trader.  If we mention wars it gets their expectations up.  But if we say - 30 years after the such and such war, and autonomous military drones are still a  hazard to shipping blah de blah they know exactlky what things are about.  they wont expect to be piloting a top of the line battleship, but they will expect to be looking out for AWS or even collecting a bounty on them.

Yes I think you may be right, from what I've said in various threads so far.  I haven't had time to think much about L5 yet.  I planned to do a writeup (which will hopefully be soon) so perhaps we can review it again when I've finished?

If you or anyone else has any ideas of how we could handle L4 and L5, I'd be happy to hear them.  I still think they should have distinctions between them.

I think we can still have this if it's simple.  Elite was essentially a very simple game, back in the 80's, it ran from a tape drive initially! But eventually became one of the all-time classics in gaming history.  Sure in the first attempt the game can't be of commercial quality by today's standards, but I think we can lay down some good roots!

Fair enough, but would they not hire a full time security agent for this? If the player took on this role, the game could get pretty boring while they waited for an attack and they would have to stay in the one area so couldn't trade in the mean time.. seems a bit restrictive.  If however they were hunting the pirate then this could make for a more interesting mission in which they might be required to scout out the location of last sighting, perhaps some recon work talking to people, setting traps, checking the ship logs at stations etc..

Are you talking player or pirate ship here? 

I can imagine there will be a lot of interest in the RPG side of the game so is definitely worth discussing.  Perhaps it is time to start thinking about a long term plan to introduce features in the first, second and third titles..  I will start thinking along these lines.

Yes in the first title, we will need to be particularly ruthless in cutting features we need to think minimalistic fun

Yes this is probably more likely than actually witnessing a fight.  In Freelancer there were fights going on almost every time you docked at a station!

I worked out some figures using basic equations of motion.  If a pirate can gain a 10 second break on a cop and accelerate at 1G for an hour.  If the cop then gives chase  at 1G for one hour, the gap will be 352km!

True, but in space the engines may cool down extremely quickly!

The drones are good as they are a great excuse to vamp up the combat element of the game, but in later titles we could consider a war, or as I suggested a while back in the nanoswarm era when things are starting to get dicey!

In the writing ot the game, finding the right balance for gameplay in the first title will be the challenging part and I suggest the first title might serve as the 'sandbox' in terms of gaining feedback to helping to find the 'silver bullet' in terms of gameplay which is fun and engrossing.

Alternatively we could instead work on a limited 'proof of concept' version of the game which is not released but used to internally evaluate what works and what doesn't.  The POC option can be discussed more in the Game Design phase.

Both options seem good.  Perhaps this could raised on the main list and see what everyone thinks.

I'd say, even though it may take longer to do a POC,  the pros outweigh the cons IMO.

Also in the last few days I've had a good look at Interbase for possible persistent data storage and so for it seems pretty solid! I have done some work on the World builder database I have talked about in previous threads and have decided as I have some momentum going on this that I might forgo some worldbuilding and focus on this for a couple of weeks. It will be used directly in the game engine so will need to be done sometime and should make world building a lot easier as one thing I'm finding is it's often hard to find relevant links on various things.

One final thing, there is a local indy game conference coming up in May and so I am half thinking it may be a good opportunity to showcase the project if a decent demo could be knocked up before then.  More on this later.

I am enthusiatic about this game, but am unfamiliar with some of the concepts in gaming/sims;

If you write a sample storyline and/or mission I am sure I could pick it up, and write one or two of my own; we will have a number before too long- as can any one else who wants to get involved.

also much of the worldbuilding can be done on the fly, as long as we bear in mind what has gone before.

New member

Recently I was approached by Rob Cambell, (orbitborn in the forum) who tells me he is a programmer and has wanted to start a space-sim project in the past, but was unable to find any like-minded developers.  Rather than giving up entirely, or doing the whole thing from scratch himself, he has decided to be part of our project. So I welcome Rob onboard

The latest screens I would rate as the most complicated ones in the game and I would also go so far to say that not many other space sims around go into this level of detail in their ship designs.  This may be a good or bad thing for the project.  On the positive side, it sets Freehauler apart from other space sims, Freehauler will have some of the highest level of detail in spacecraft design of any space sim on the market (to the best of my knowledge) and not only that it will also be the only hard science sim on the market (again to the best of my knowledge). On the other hand I tend to think that this may make it appeal to more of a niche market rather than a main-stream one and we may need to think about which market we are ultimately targeting.

Pirate Factions and tactics

While I have stated in the past that to focus should shift away from world building for a while, I think it is never-the-less necessary to revisit this area and invent some pirate factions.  This is becuase I think we should start thinking about enemy AI (programmer context not Orion's Arm), their backgrounds and motivations and also their combat tactics and how they will fit into our setting.